THX1139
Jul 12, 03:59 AM
there's no way apple's going to use woodcrest in the upcoming powermac rev because there are no motherboards for socket 771 (woodcrest) that support anything above pci express 8x. powermac's are going to be high end workstations for print, graphics, and media shops, 8x pci express won't cut it.
look around at all the motherboard manufacturers (nvidia, ati, asus, msi, etc) none of them have a woodcrest platform available. apple always uses some other motherboard vendor like supermicro.
the upcoming powermac's will use core duo 2 and extremes. unfortunately we won't have a quad processor intel powermac just yet. but i bet the core duo 2 extreme will still show processing improvements above and beyond the quad g5 which will be good enough.
the only way i see this happening is if apple ships the powermac in 2007 when the socket 771 boards start using 16x pci express.
The most intelligent post on this thread. Sadly, I agree. We won't see Quad Macs until Kentsfield ships first quarter of 2007. Until then, it's going to be Duo 2 extreme and Quad G5 in the lineup.
On another note, I cracks me up whenever I read any post where people bash the Conroe. They say that having it in anything other than iMac would be disappointing. Well, all I can say is the Conroe is a wicked fast chip and for all instensive purposes, it's just as fast as Woodcrest... if not faster. The only drawback is lack of multi processor support. For that we have to wait until 2007.
Come WWDC, I hope to find out I'm wrong and Apple kicks out an affordable Quad Woodcrest machine. However, being a realist... I doubt it.
look around at all the motherboard manufacturers (nvidia, ati, asus, msi, etc) none of them have a woodcrest platform available. apple always uses some other motherboard vendor like supermicro.
the upcoming powermac's will use core duo 2 and extremes. unfortunately we won't have a quad processor intel powermac just yet. but i bet the core duo 2 extreme will still show processing improvements above and beyond the quad g5 which will be good enough.
the only way i see this happening is if apple ships the powermac in 2007 when the socket 771 boards start using 16x pci express.
The most intelligent post on this thread. Sadly, I agree. We won't see Quad Macs until Kentsfield ships first quarter of 2007. Until then, it's going to be Duo 2 extreme and Quad G5 in the lineup.
On another note, I cracks me up whenever I read any post where people bash the Conroe. They say that having it in anything other than iMac would be disappointing. Well, all I can say is the Conroe is a wicked fast chip and for all instensive purposes, it's just as fast as Woodcrest... if not faster. The only drawback is lack of multi processor support. For that we have to wait until 2007.
Come WWDC, I hope to find out I'm wrong and Apple kicks out an affordable Quad Woodcrest machine. However, being a realist... I doubt it.
carfac
Sep 12, 06:06 PM
>>> Those who think this isn't a Tivo killer don't understand Tivo's plans.
Those that think this is a Tivo Killer don't understand economics, or why people buy Tivos.
Fort this to even be in the BALLPARK, it needs a Hard Dive. Needs to be Hi Def. That ain't happening at a 299.99 price tag. Still, people love the Tivo interface, so to get them, it's gonna have to offer MORE than Tivo- like an optical drive, a couple tuners. No WAY that is in this box and "not discolsed yet" at 299.
Tivo Killer. That's a killer joke, or Appleboy dreaming. Not close to reality.
Those that think this is a Tivo Killer don't understand economics, or why people buy Tivos.
Fort this to even be in the BALLPARK, it needs a Hard Dive. Needs to be Hi Def. That ain't happening at a 299.99 price tag. Still, people love the Tivo interface, so to get them, it's gonna have to offer MORE than Tivo- like an optical drive, a couple tuners. No WAY that is in this box and "not discolsed yet" at 299.
Tivo Killer. That's a killer joke, or Appleboy dreaming. Not close to reality.
MacCoaster
Oct 10, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by javajedi
Lower scores are better:
G4 800: 104251
P4 2.6: 5890
8342, 8302, 8312, 8312, 8292, 8292, 8302, 8302... averaging 8307 on AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.4GHz under Windows XP. Will test under FreeBSD and Linux later.
Lower scores are better:
G4 800: 104251
P4 2.6: 5890
8342, 8302, 8312, 8312, 8292, 8292, 8302, 8302... averaging 8307 on AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.4GHz under Windows XP. Will test under FreeBSD and Linux later.
jaduffy108
Aug 29, 02:11 PM
I didn't know we had a climate scientist in this forum, let alone one of the tiny percentage of scientists who dispute that human activity is a large factor in current climate change? Please enlighten us... that is, unless you're just some guy with an uneducated opinion. By all means, tell us why you know so much more about this well-studied topic than the hundreds of thousands of climate researchers around the world who've reached an almost unprecedented consensus regarding the roll of human activity, and CO2 production, in climate change.
But, to get back on topic, I do think Apple should release well-documented information regarding what they are doing to reduce their environmental impact, and how they're going to change in the face of these criticisms.
Apple is supposed to be 'Different', and these challenges regarding the treatment of their labour force, and their environmental policies, should be viewed as opportunities to be a good example (and thereby earn more customer loyalty), rather than something to be spun and handled with PR.
Cheers
### Well said!
But, to get back on topic, I do think Apple should release well-documented information regarding what they are doing to reduce their environmental impact, and how they're going to change in the face of these criticisms.
Apple is supposed to be 'Different', and these challenges regarding the treatment of their labour force, and their environmental policies, should be viewed as opportunities to be a good example (and thereby earn more customer loyalty), rather than something to be spun and handled with PR.
Cheers
### Well said!
cgmpowers
Sep 12, 04:04 PM
I agree, they most likely left out the DVR function because of the movie and television studios. Why would someone want to 'buy' an older movie for $10 when you can record it via EyeTV and edit out the commercials and the transfer it to your iTunes (which is exactly what the new version of EyeTV does!).
No wonder Apple made EyeTV unbundle it from Front Row... At least I can still record, edit out commercials and transfer to iTunes!! Who needs Tivo anymore!!
Christopher Powers
I think Apple had to compromise to be able to get TV shows on itunes pledging not to have a pvr to networks.
Elgato is here and they are good, so it's just a matter to buy it and use it to stream videos to your TV via ITV.
No wonder Apple made EyeTV unbundle it from Front Row... At least I can still record, edit out commercials and transfer to iTunes!! Who needs Tivo anymore!!
Christopher Powers
I think Apple had to compromise to be able to get TV shows on itunes pledging not to have a pvr to networks.
Elgato is here and they are good, so it's just a matter to buy it and use it to stream videos to your TV via ITV.
wdogmedia
Aug 29, 04:32 PM
In the EU there will soon be WEEE directive that governs the disposal of so called "E-waste" (televisions, computers, phones, etc), that will seriously affect manufacturers and retailers. So will Apple continue along their current trend of simply not selling products in these territories or will they redesign them? Because, eventually these sorts of laws will be passed all around the world, including the US.
Apple needs to abide by the laws of whatever country it sells products in (I know, I ended with a preposition, I'm tired). In order to survive, Apple will need to adapt along with changine environmental law....I'm certainly not suggesting that Apple break the law.
I'm only saying that as of right now, Apple's not actually doing anything legally wrong.
EDIT: And as far as being "proactive," Apple is somewhat bound by its suppliers, at least in a manufacturing sense. Batteries from Sony, processors from Motorola, IBM and Intel, hard drives from Toshiba, etc.
Apple needs to abide by the laws of whatever country it sells products in (I know, I ended with a preposition, I'm tired). In order to survive, Apple will need to adapt along with changine environmental law....I'm certainly not suggesting that Apple break the law.
I'm only saying that as of right now, Apple's not actually doing anything legally wrong.
EDIT: And as far as being "proactive," Apple is somewhat bound by its suppliers, at least in a manufacturing sense. Batteries from Sony, processors from Motorola, IBM and Intel, hard drives from Toshiba, etc.
paolo-
Apr 6, 11:02 PM
I think your experience with the operating system will greatly depend on how you understand the computer and how open you are to a new interpretation of it.
To start with the red x as an example.
Some people think an application is a window, when switching to a mac, they press the red x and don't understand why their computer starts being slow after a while when they fulled up the ram. From the sounds of it, you're fairly computer literate. Having the red x only close a window may seem strange at first. But once you understand you're closing the window and not the application, it actually makes sense. Some apps can continue to work without having a window open, like say iTunes. For other apps, it can be useful to keep an app loaded in the ram but not have any window open. Say you're using word, you finish up working on a document but know you'll be using in a few minutes, you can close the window but keep word in the ram. Then a few minutes later when you open the new document, boom it's open, no need to start word again.
That said, window/application management is the biggest difference to windows.
1. Apps don't usually run full screen and most of all don't need to run full screen. Really, look on your windows machine, everything runs in full screen and you don't see what the other apps are doing. And most of your apps are filled with white space. Even if you don't run them full screen, running windows side by side can be a pain because you'll open another one and all the other one will minimize or something like that. Okay, I think it's better with windows 7 but having multiple windows open is much easier in os x.
For example, the lack of document tree might be weird at first, but you just open a new finder window (cmnd-N or cmnd-double click on a folder) pop them side by side and just drag between them. Also, you can just use spotlight (magnifying glass or cmnd-space) to find what ever you want faster. But if you're doing web work, I can see you dealing a lot with complicated paths and having to move things around quite a bit, the list view is quite close to the tree view.
2. command-tab switches app, command-~ switches windows.
3. Expos� and spaces, use them :)
4. EVERYTHING HAS A KEYBOARD SHORTCUT. I had to put that one in caps, but really, everything useful has a keyboard shortcut. That might be why somethings that seem awkward at first are fairly easy to the experienced. Also, it works wonder with apps you use all the time, no need to mouse around menus to find functions you use all the time.
cmnd-Q : quits app, no need to open the dock right click on the icon and say quit application
cmnd-H : hides the app, most experienced users I know don't use the yellow button a lot. The yellow button drags you app to the dock, cmnd-H hides every window of the app, when clicking on it's icon in the dock, it'll resume like nothing happened.
cmnd-W closes a window, same as red button
5. If you think it should exist, it probably does. The UI is quite consistent, once you understand the logic behind things they tend to apply everywhere.
To start with the red x as an example.
Some people think an application is a window, when switching to a mac, they press the red x and don't understand why their computer starts being slow after a while when they fulled up the ram. From the sounds of it, you're fairly computer literate. Having the red x only close a window may seem strange at first. But once you understand you're closing the window and not the application, it actually makes sense. Some apps can continue to work without having a window open, like say iTunes. For other apps, it can be useful to keep an app loaded in the ram but not have any window open. Say you're using word, you finish up working on a document but know you'll be using in a few minutes, you can close the window but keep word in the ram. Then a few minutes later when you open the new document, boom it's open, no need to start word again.
That said, window/application management is the biggest difference to windows.
1. Apps don't usually run full screen and most of all don't need to run full screen. Really, look on your windows machine, everything runs in full screen and you don't see what the other apps are doing. And most of your apps are filled with white space. Even if you don't run them full screen, running windows side by side can be a pain because you'll open another one and all the other one will minimize or something like that. Okay, I think it's better with windows 7 but having multiple windows open is much easier in os x.
For example, the lack of document tree might be weird at first, but you just open a new finder window (cmnd-N or cmnd-double click on a folder) pop them side by side and just drag between them. Also, you can just use spotlight (magnifying glass or cmnd-space) to find what ever you want faster. But if you're doing web work, I can see you dealing a lot with complicated paths and having to move things around quite a bit, the list view is quite close to the tree view.
2. command-tab switches app, command-~ switches windows.
3. Expos� and spaces, use them :)
4. EVERYTHING HAS A KEYBOARD SHORTCUT. I had to put that one in caps, but really, everything useful has a keyboard shortcut. That might be why somethings that seem awkward at first are fairly easy to the experienced. Also, it works wonder with apps you use all the time, no need to mouse around menus to find functions you use all the time.
cmnd-Q : quits app, no need to open the dock right click on the icon and say quit application
cmnd-H : hides the app, most experienced users I know don't use the yellow button a lot. The yellow button drags you app to the dock, cmnd-H hides every window of the app, when clicking on it's icon in the dock, it'll resume like nothing happened.
cmnd-W closes a window, same as red button
5. If you think it should exist, it probably does. The UI is quite consistent, once you understand the logic behind things they tend to apply everywhere.
Thunderhawks
Apr 9, 12:36 PM
If you don't believe me, there's plenty of history to read. Just go look at the following industries that were disrupted by technology...
love quotes for long distance
long distance love doesn#39;t
love quotes for long distance
love quotes for her long
Love+quotes+for+him+long+
love quotes to her
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Love Quotes For Long Distance
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Quotes collection of love
love quotes for him long
AidenShaw
Oct 8, 02:06 PM
I thought so. This is the first time I have seen the term "Multi-Threaded Workflow" and I thank you for that.
Yes, I was thinking of your workflow when I said that. :D
I'm glad to see you confirm my suspicion that the 2.33GHz Dual Clovertown Mac Pro will in fact be faster than the 2.66 or 3GHz Dual Woodie when someone knows how they work simultaneously with a set of applications that can use all those cores a lot of the time.
IBM's Blue Gene supercomputer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Gene) is fundamentally based on the fact that for parallel tasks you can essentially add all of the "MHz" together, and that lots and lots of slower CPUs will beat a much smaller number of much faster CPUs.
In the case of the current dual and quad core chips, you double the number of cores - but the cores aren't that much slower than the earlier chips. It's a win for lots of workloads, and not much of a loss for a completely single-threaded task.
Yes, I was thinking of your workflow when I said that. :D
I'm glad to see you confirm my suspicion that the 2.33GHz Dual Clovertown Mac Pro will in fact be faster than the 2.66 or 3GHz Dual Woodie when someone knows how they work simultaneously with a set of applications that can use all those cores a lot of the time.
IBM's Blue Gene supercomputer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Gene) is fundamentally based on the fact that for parallel tasks you can essentially add all of the "MHz" together, and that lots and lots of slower CPUs will beat a much smaller number of much faster CPUs.
In the case of the current dual and quad core chips, you double the number of cores - but the cores aren't that much slower than the earlier chips. It's a win for lots of workloads, and not much of a loss for a completely single-threaded task.
edifyingGerbil
Apr 22, 08:17 PM
I consider myself an atheist who tries to back up my points with facts. I've seen most other posters who are atheists do the same. I hope you are wrong about it being a "trendy" thing to do but I do hope more people see the reasoning behind atheism and join us for the correct reasons. As far as agnostics go, I know the difference between us and I couldn't care less....close enough in my eyes!!!! An atheist and an agnostic arguing to me is like hearing a Catholic and a Protestant argue....such a small difference in something so important.
Nope, most people identify with atheism but when challenged to defend their points they just say "because God doesn't exist" or something along those lines. They don't try to do the simple paradox argument, or the existence of evil argument. It would therefore lead me to conclude that they're atheists because they were exposed to it in pop culture or something.
When someone tries to say there must be a God because the probability of mankind existing is x I counter it with "In a universe that is thought to be forever cycling through big bangs and big crunches eternally probability becomes meaningless. Intelligent life would eventually evolve anyway, without a divine hand to guide it.
There are arguments and counter-arguments to both camps, which is why I choose to be agnostos. In the face of a dearth of evidence it's more rational to withhold judgment than leap to an extreme position.
Nope, most people identify with atheism but when challenged to defend their points they just say "because God doesn't exist" or something along those lines. They don't try to do the simple paradox argument, or the existence of evil argument. It would therefore lead me to conclude that they're atheists because they were exposed to it in pop culture or something.
When someone tries to say there must be a God because the probability of mankind existing is x I counter it with "In a universe that is thought to be forever cycling through big bangs and big crunches eternally probability becomes meaningless. Intelligent life would eventually evolve anyway, without a divine hand to guide it.
There are arguments and counter-arguments to both camps, which is why I choose to be agnostos. In the face of a dearth of evidence it's more rational to withhold judgment than leap to an extreme position.
deannnnn
May 5, 01:06 PM
Check out this poll that was on Facebook today!
Anyone wanna guess which answer I chose? ;)
Anyone wanna guess which answer I chose? ;)
gugy
Oct 25, 10:46 PM
I am so there with the cash ready a willing to fly out the window to Apple's account sooner than Apple can say:
"8-Core Mac Pro Available At the Apple Online Store For Ordering." :)
Yeah, I might do the same.
The only thing that keeps me using my Quad G5 now is the fact Adobe CS2 is not universal and the memory price of the new Mac Pro's are soooo high.
But the octo-core for sure will be faster than the quad G5 for non universal Adobe CS2 apps.
Interesting decision to make.
I'll make my mind when this really happens.
"8-Core Mac Pro Available At the Apple Online Store For Ordering." :)
Yeah, I might do the same.
The only thing that keeps me using my Quad G5 now is the fact Adobe CS2 is not universal and the memory price of the new Mac Pro's are soooo high.
But the octo-core for sure will be faster than the quad G5 for non universal Adobe CS2 apps.
Interesting decision to make.
I'll make my mind when this really happens.
pdjudd
Oct 7, 03:31 PM
Just like Mac OS X would gain market share if you could install it on any PC.
No, they most likely wouldn't. There is no reason to think that it would - it's conjecture. (http://daringfireball.net/2004/08/parlay)
No, they most likely wouldn't. There is no reason to think that it would - it's conjecture. (http://daringfireball.net/2004/08/parlay)
Piggie
Apr 28, 09:17 AM
It's no surprise that Apple will never make much headway as they stubbornly refuse to make a range of computers to suit a range of customers.
In the UK, yesterday I visited 3 of the largest high street superstores we have, which sell a range of electrical goods (TV's SatNav's HiFi, and White goods) and computers.
In all three stores, there must have been at least 3 long tables packed with a vast number of PC laptops with price ranges from �199 upwards to high end models, and of course some desktops also.
In all designs, colours, styles, large and small, etc etc etc.
And in all 3 shops there was one small table with a couple of Apple Laptops and an iMac.
That's it, all at the very top of the price range. Probably around the most expensive computers in the whole store.
And we wonder why Apple is not making major headway in "Typical Customer" sales.
It does not exactly need Einstein to see what the problem is.
In the UK, yesterday I visited 3 of the largest high street superstores we have, which sell a range of electrical goods (TV's SatNav's HiFi, and White goods) and computers.
In all three stores, there must have been at least 3 long tables packed with a vast number of PC laptops with price ranges from �199 upwards to high end models, and of course some desktops also.
In all designs, colours, styles, large and small, etc etc etc.
And in all 3 shops there was one small table with a couple of Apple Laptops and an iMac.
That's it, all at the very top of the price range. Probably around the most expensive computers in the whole store.
And we wonder why Apple is not making major headway in "Typical Customer" sales.
It does not exactly need Einstein to see what the problem is.
LegendKillerUK
Apr 20, 05:23 PM
How about use some of that money to get iTunes/App Store login fixed up. Many reporting it down like me on Twitter.
Speedy2
Oct 7, 04:09 PM
And of those 85k apps how many of them are not crap...
I think saying 1k is being very generous. Most of the apps are pretty crappy and useless.
Who cares what you think? You will find high quality apps for pretty much anything you can think of in the App Store. You won't find quality apps for everything in Google's, Microsoft's, RIMM's, Nokia's etc App store. That's the only thing that counts.
And your "argument" that it is oh-so-impossible to get iPhone Apps approved is ridiculed by the sheer number of Apps and the fact that the number is constantly growing.
I read reports that over 60% of all apps turn into apple are getting rejected with little help on why.
Source please.
A lot of the best apps for the iPhone out there are currently only available for Jail broken phones only.
Utter nonsense. Name "a lot" please!
You can't really make decent money with jailbroken apps. Tell me how on earth "a lot of the best" would ONLY be available outside the App store?
How many iPhones with OS >=2.0 are jailbroken in the first place?
That should tell you something.
Yeah it tells us that you're making stuff up and have a very warped idea of the facts.
I think saying 1k is being very generous. Most of the apps are pretty crappy and useless.
Who cares what you think? You will find high quality apps for pretty much anything you can think of in the App Store. You won't find quality apps for everything in Google's, Microsoft's, RIMM's, Nokia's etc App store. That's the only thing that counts.
And your "argument" that it is oh-so-impossible to get iPhone Apps approved is ridiculed by the sheer number of Apps and the fact that the number is constantly growing.
I read reports that over 60% of all apps turn into apple are getting rejected with little help on why.
Source please.
A lot of the best apps for the iPhone out there are currently only available for Jail broken phones only.
Utter nonsense. Name "a lot" please!
You can't really make decent money with jailbroken apps. Tell me how on earth "a lot of the best" would ONLY be available outside the App store?
How many iPhones with OS >=2.0 are jailbroken in the first place?
That should tell you something.
Yeah it tells us that you're making stuff up and have a very warped idea of the facts.
Thunderhawks
Apr 28, 09:11 AM
You got one bright office there mate. And thank you for replying so I don't get the slightest idea in my head that I won...
hahaha
Duh, winner, winner Sheen dinner:-)
hahaha
Duh, winner, winner Sheen dinner:-)
Huntn
Mar 13, 08:27 AM
might be better suited to the political forum
In hindsight, I'd move it if I could. Maybe the moderators will help.
It is a risk vs reward situation. Is the risk worth the reward? Until they find an answer for spent fuel rods, I'm mostly against. Here is a good question: Would you want to live next to a nuke power plant?
In hindsight, I'd move it if I could. Maybe the moderators will help.
It is a risk vs reward situation. Is the risk worth the reward? Until they find an answer for spent fuel rods, I'm mostly against. Here is a good question: Would you want to live next to a nuke power plant?
econgeek
Apr 12, 10:37 PM
They should have just called this iMovie pro, because that's what it is. So, Apple Color is left to die the death of Shake, huh? Wow, crazy.
I think you missed the color correction on ingest, non-destructive color correction, and one-click color correction feature announcements. Color is not dead, it is just no longer a separate app. The entire app is re-written with color matching integrate to the app, and color correction as well, it sounds like.
So this is basically a jazzed up Final Cut Express and the pros have been shown the door. Why am I not shocked about this. :mad:
This is what you wanted to believe and so this is all you see. Since people were saying essentially the same thing before anything had been announced, you're not going to be getting much sympathy.
I think you missed the color correction on ingest, non-destructive color correction, and one-click color correction feature announcements. Color is not dead, it is just no longer a separate app. The entire app is re-written with color matching integrate to the app, and color correction as well, it sounds like.
So this is basically a jazzed up Final Cut Express and the pros have been shown the door. Why am I not shocked about this. :mad:
This is what you wanted to believe and so this is all you see. Since people were saying essentially the same thing before anything had been announced, you're not going to be getting much sympathy.
Macinposh
Oct 26, 04:36 AM
No Way -- We had activity monitor open -- Photoshop used an average of 72% off ALL FOUR PROCESSORS.
Wow. You must be using some uber version of PS.
I havent managed to break 110% whatever I am doing with my MP.
You have the CS 3 or 4?
We did use safari at the same time to download a template for the art book (250 MG) and we had a DVD ripping via Mac the Ripper as well.
Ooooh..
Have you tought that that might be the reason for the high cpu usage? Eh? By any coincidence?
Wow. You must be using some uber version of PS.
I havent managed to break 110% whatever I am doing with my MP.
You have the CS 3 or 4?
We did use safari at the same time to download a template for the art book (250 MG) and we had a DVD ripping via Mac the Ripper as well.
Ooooh..
Have you tought that that might be the reason for the high cpu usage? Eh? By any coincidence?
notabadname
Apr 20, 05:57 PM
If you don't know what you're doing with your own devices then maybe you need Apple to hold your hand.
It about not knowing what the software writers are doing with my own device. Not whether I need someone to "hold my hand".
It about not knowing what the software writers are doing with my own device. Not whether I need someone to "hold my hand".
jlasoon
Apr 9, 10:37 AM
Your overall point being because Apple poses and threat to Nintendo, which Nintendo recognises, Nintendo are doomed to go out of business?
That's not what he's saying. The premise being presented is adapt/evolve or face the consequences of a rapid moving technological world. Doesn't mean the company goes out of business.
That's not what he's saying. The premise being presented is adapt/evolve or face the consequences of a rapid moving technological world. Doesn't mean the company goes out of business.
Bill McEnaney
Mar 27, 07:10 AM
Compared to the alternative, it certainly seems to be.
[source: human history]
Compared to what alternative?
[source: human history]
Compared to what alternative?
Edge100
Apr 15, 12:21 PM
All things being equal, they prevent HIV versus not using them. But the promotion of a sexually promiscuous lifestyle increases the risk overall. That's what that argument is about, not that hard to get, really.
That's NOT what the argument is about. Your church LIED to people about the efficacy of condoms - people for whom the only source of that information was the Catholic church.
And they lied about it to married couples, too.
Oh, and just in case we're not clear on this: abstinence-only education doesn't work.
That's NOT what the argument is about. Your church LIED to people about the efficacy of condoms - people for whom the only source of that information was the Catholic church.
And they lied about it to married couples, too.
Oh, and just in case we're not clear on this: abstinence-only education doesn't work.
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